"History and people are not divided into good guys and bad guys."

For Pablo Pérez, Full Professor of Contemporary History and professor at Master's Degree in Christianity and Contemporary Culture, what happened in May 1968 was a phenomenon that will be studied in history books for decades, since it meant "a change in people's ways of life".

P. The beginning of the book places us in the 50s and 60s in the United States. There are topics such as racism, the environment and feminism, which are still current issues. Why are we still dragging these issues more than sixty years later?

In reality, it takes much longer. The reorganization of work, of families and social decisions are the product of a disruption of the classical order that prevailed until then. Industrialization brought about a very intense change, which has not yet taken hold because the solutions are often unsatisfactory or have consequences that have not been considered. Sometimes, the solutions that are taken for good are considered fruits of a new freedom gained, such as sexual freedom or material well-being, and the price in life staff or in relationships with others has not been taken into account. I think we are now in a position to begin to see the implications.

P. So, are we living a second revolution or is it an extension of the first one that has not been completely closed?

Indeed, one could say that it is the repetition of a certain revolutionary myth coupled with material success that creates a revolution of expectations and a collective political hallucination. It has adopted the model of protesting to improve and build "a perfect world".

Q. What do you mean by the 'revolution of expectations'?

In the 1950s and 1960s in the United States there was a certain capitalist utopia that believed that there would be no more injustice or oppression, but equality. They said that they have managed to solve the problems of a material nature and, therefore, there is nothing that cannot be solved. Even Kennedy, in a June 1963 speech , said that there is no man-made problem that man cannot solve.

We all know from experience that this is a lie: the problems we create are precisely problems because we do not know how to solve them. It is a political fallacy, it is promising a utopia. We would like it to be so, but it is very difficult to take it to internship .

Q. How would you define the woke movement?

It was born in the 21st century, although it has slightly earlier roots and is a consequence of a very mechanistic French thinking. It is based on postulates that say that we live in a world in which there are no heroes. Our ideals of the past have collapsed because we are dedicated to denunciation; therefore, we do not admire them and the only thing we have left are victims. We have to identify which are those groups of victims of the injustice we have inherited in order to defend them and prevent a speech that victimizes them again. It has a point of extreme paternalism, rebelliousness and accusatory mentality because it is willing to point out the evil in others. This is not very fruitful and the effect it is having is very destructive.

Q. Can you give an example of a destructive act?

Niall Ferguson, a British historian, has co-founded the University of Austin whose motto is Dare to think, which stems from the cancellation that his wife, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, went through. She is a Somali woman who fled her country persecuted for speaking out against Islam and female genital mutilation, of which she was a victim. After a stay in the Netherlands, she arrived in the United States, where a university awarded her in 2010 for her work. Before the ceremony of submission, she is informed that it will not be possible because some groups have demonstrated against her for being anti-Islamic and cancel everything.

This is incomprehensible, she is a victim of Islam and now Islam is a victim of her. History and people are not divided into good and bad, they cannot be judged like that. This shows that it is not the good that is of interest, but the denunciation of evil. Ferguson calls this subject of acts a call for ignorance. Things are more gray, they require a lot of nuance. In universities, above all, we must study. We cannot devote ourselves to proclaiming slogans and writing nice phrases on the wall to make everyone happy, because then circumstances change and today's hero may be tomorrow's villain.

Q. And has the woke culture brought any benefit to society?

Some good always comes out of human actions, because there are well-meaning people everywhere. I think that, on the whole, what he spreads is not good, but sometimes he puts his finger on injustices that are true, such as the marginalization of women in history or the mistreatment of certain cultures or minorities.

Q. Will the Woke movement be studied in history books in the same way as May '68 is studied?

I suppose so, because we historians are very geeky and we remember these issues. The Woke movement will not have such profound consequences as May '68 because, as I say in the book, '68 is a whole chain of events that changed people's ways of life, for example, the ways men and women relate to each other or how to create and maintain the family. That has had tremendous consequences that are not in the woke culture because the latter is much more ideological and affects less real life or day to day life. It deceives you less, perhaps because it has a higher point of sophistication. It is more of an intellectual disease and not of subject vital. If we all started to live like woke and started to denounce the partner of work because he performs actions that I don't like, surely our society would fall apart.